Disciple: Master, what does the term Dharmakaya mean?

Samael Aun Weor: The term Dharmakaya unquestionably implies perfection of the adept or servant of the great work. We could not conceive of an adept of perfections without the Dharmakaya body; but whosoever possesses that body must know how to live in that "geometric line" that separates the "tality" from the machinery of relativity, and know to live, in perfect balance, between the Tality and the machinery of relativity.


Symbolic representation of the Dharmakaya

I bring up this term “Tality" [or totality] due to the following: the machinery of relativity and the illuminating void are opposites, but there is a synthesis that reconciles them both, and it is the Tality. The Tality is beyond the illuminating void. Tality is the great reality. I know this by direct mystical experience achieved through deep, inner Meditation. I also know it by the degree of prajnaparamita intuition, which is the highest, deepest degree of intuition.

It is difficult to pass beyond the illuminating void until reaching the bosom of the tality, but I sharpen my answer by saying: if someone has acquired the Dharmakaya body, he must not only be absorbed within the bosom of the Tality, but must learn to live at that "geometric line" that separates the tality from the machinery of relativity. He has to learn to live in action, in the most perfect balance. 

tree of life twelve bodies

Are there any other questions?

Disciple: What is the relationship between the Dharmakaya and Ain Soph Aur?

Samael Aun Weor: Well, obviously, the one who has already arrived... the one who has the body of the Dharmakaya, has incarnated in himself not only the Ain Soph Aur (the divine star that is far beyond the Ancient of Days), but has actually succeeded in returning to the thirteenth aeon with Pistis Sophia. Only the one who has really been immersed in the thirteenth aeon has the Dharmakaya body. 

tree of life aeons col opt

Any other questions, brothers and sisters?

Disciple: Would you be so kind as to explain the order of the four kayas?

Samael Aun Weor: Obviously, the four kayas are indispensable. However, I prefer to think according to the doctrine of the three kayas. I even like to think in terms, I might say, of paramartha (in the term of sunyata, there is synthesis)...

Obviously, the three kayas… for example, the kaya of transformation, as we call the Nirmanakaya, is great, because it allows us to transform ourselves and completely renounce all happiness to dedicate ourselves to service of our fellow beings. There are, for example, great arhats (we cannot deny it), buddhas of contemplation — let us call them “pratyekas” — who are concerned, yes, for their inner perfection, but who are cruel, who do not work for humanity, who do nothing for the world. That is not the path of authentic perfection.

If we work not only within ourselves, but also work as missionaries carrying the teaching from door to door, sacrificing ourselves for humanity, we follow the path of the Nirmanakayas, which is the same of the bodhisattvas of compassion...

Disciple: The one of the Nirmanakayas?

Samael Aun Weor: Of course! Note that the Nirmanakaya body is that which the bodhisattvas adopt in order to work for humanity. That is why the body of Nirmanakaya is called the "body of transformation.” It is a body of perfection.

Another thing is the body of the Sambhogakaya or body of joy. The body of enjoyment, really, is beautiful, beautiful; it allows us to enjoy life free in its movement, to feel the happiness of the universe within ourselves. It gives us a state of extraordinary beatitude.

Far beyond the body this kaya of enjoyment, there is the body of the Dharmakaya. The body of the Dharmakaya, in fact really, is the law-body, the body of one who sacrificed himself for humanity, the body of one who in the world could be called “adeptus exemptus,” since that one has settled all their karma, has experienced sunyata, has already escaped the processes of alaya-vijñana (which are merely psychological processes), has gone beyond the psychological to enter the field of the ontological...

So, my dear friends, it is well worth continuing to work on yourselves, on your inner Consciousness, on bottled cosmic Consciousness. But that we must purify that inner Consciousness? That is a fact, and it is purified by the disintegration of the inhuman "psychic elements" that we carry inside. 

Any other question?

Disciple: In ancient Egypt, when the adept acquired the body of the Dharmakaya, did he also acquire the right to possess a living mummy?

Samael Aun Weor: Well, this is completely different. One thing is the question of the mummification of the Egyptians, or Inca, or whomever, and another thing are ontological or psychological questions. In the explanation I did not refer specifically to the physical vehicle. I preferred to deal only with ontology in the light of sunyata and with full explanation of the alaya-prajnana, which is different. So, how much better that we get to the foundations of the ontological and the psychological. 

It is also fitting that we learn to know the limits of logical confrontation. If we were to seek authentic peace within logical confrontations, unquestionably we would not find it. Whosoever wants to experience truth has to be freed from logic, no matter how well structured it is. When one studies Mr. Immanuel Kant, the philosopher of Königsberg, one marvels at the logical confrontations and the processes raised by him in the question of reasoning; but the most perfect syllogism, nor the best structured prosyllogism, nor the grandest epilogism could offer us the authentic peace of the profound truth.

Undoubtedly, if we want to experience truth we need to be freed from logic, because logic is truly not a perfect dwelling place for being. We need something more than logical confrontations, more than inductive or deductive processes. We certainly need the body of the Dharmakaya, the Dharmakaya who experiences and can experience, at any time, directly, the sunyata, and yet nevertheless remains at that "geometric line" (authentic, perfect) that marks the waypoint between the machinery of relativity and the illuminating void (which is not of time)…

Disciple: [inaudible]

Samael Aun Weor: Of course! I understand... I understand what the multidimensional process is, that is obvious... ...and we cannot stop explaining this question... 

If we live, then, in a world of three dimensions — length, width, and height, as we know — undoubtedly the fourth coordinate is different. The fourth coordinate or fourth vertical relates, actually, with the K meson, for example, or with the regions where the K meson is processed. Through Chinese scientists, it has been possible to investigate how the K meson is altered by forces of a parallel universe. So, the “official” science is coming to the question of the fourth vertical.

For example, the K meson is not processed exactly in accordance with the laws of the third dimension; it does not act with the law of parity (which is vital in a three-dimensional world), but moves in a different way, interfered perfectly by a parallel universe, by the universe of the fourth vertical. We have been told that this vertical fourth is related in some way with time, since we can travel backward or forward in time.

Precisely now, on this trip that we made to Durango, I was in contact with a rather interesting man, an atomic physicist. Despite being a genius in nuclear physics, this man learned to move with the physical body in time, travel in time, backward and forward. So, being strictly an atomic physicist who is going to establish a nuclear plant in Veracruz, an atomic plant, nevertheless he has managed to dominate the vertical fourth and travel, I repeat, in time.

A little beyond “time” we have the fifth coordinate, which is “eternity.” Beyond the fifth coordinate is the sixth vertical, which is neither time nor eternity. It is beyond time and eternity.

So take note: 

  • the world of three dimensions (length, width, and height), the world in which we move. Is it understood? 
  • the world of the fourth vertical, time
  • the world of the fifth, eternity
  • the world of the sixth, that which is beyond eternity and time
  • and finally, the zero dimension, unknown. 

tree of life dimensions color

That is the concrete approach.

But, well, through our work that has to be processed in seven levels, disintegrating the "undesirable elements" that we carry inside, we are interested in the zero dimension, unknown, and later submerge ourselves within the Tality, the breast of the Great Reality. But the work is of deep content, profound, didactic and dialectical, and it is necessary to know the basic techniques, related to the question of deep Meditation.

Disciple: Venerable master... if movement, of which much is spoken, originates in the body, and if our restlessness originates in space, in the different dimensions, does that mean one has different movements?

Samael Aun Weor: Your question is interesting but antiquated. It already happened that in the eighteenth century there was talk about "force and matter,” in which that was discussed, and the people were exhausted discussing that. It was also said that "matter is a mode of movement,” and that "spirit is another mode of movement,” right? This concept is antiquated. There is a need to be deeper in one’s thinking. That is too superficial.

We need to dig deeper into the deep, inner question, right? And understand that the interesting part for us is monism, not dualism. If we learn to think monistically, beyond conceptual dualisms and logical confrontations  — even if they are of an "Ouspensky-style" order — we can certainly, truly, think better, transform our mind, and thus, in that way, conquer ourselves more deeply. Ideas are undoubtedly necessary, but you have to know how to use them.

Monistic ideas lead us to an integral, total change. The Dharmakaya is monistic. The Dharmakayas are never dualistic; they are always monists. That is why a Dharmakaya would not join a school of extreme right or extreme left; he is revolutionary, marching on the path of the middle, which is the path of synthesis...

The multidimensional question is undeniable, but in this question of the multidimensionality of space there are many sums and subtractions; these are purely mathematical questions, and that is what is fundamental: to know that the entities that govern this universe of relativity are living numbers. Let us therefore enter the field of mathematics... 

Any other questions, brothers and sisters?

Disciple: Master ... What is the relationship between the Dharmakaya and the superhuman?

Samael Aun Weor: Well, obviously, the superhuman is terrifically divine, beyond good and evil. But, in the name of truth, the Dharmakaya is beyond conceptions. Moreover, I mean, or more clearly, that the Dharmakaya who can already use the law-body transcends the superhuman, is beyond the grade of superhuman. The Dharmakaya, in and of itself, is substance-being, being in substance. The Dharmakaya, or one who possesses the body of law, has undoubtedly even passed beyond individuality, because individuality must be completely dissolved if one wants to become Dharmakaya. 

Note that the Dharmakaya is a step beyond Consciousness.

We need to awaken Consciousness — obviously — by direct work on ourselves, but finally it must integrate with the Tality, with the Great Reality. It is a drop that must fall into the ocean of the great life free in its movement. It is obvious: if Consciousness is a part of the soul of the world in us, we need to purify it to return it to its pristine, original state... ...and obviously have to integrate with the “totality," that is, within the Tality, with the Great Reality of life free in movement, and that is how we progress even further beyond individuality.

Now, bear in mind that I am speaking of "Consciousness," but Dharmakaya is a step beyond Consciousness. It has been integrated absolutely with the Great Reality. It has transcended Individuality. So the superhuman, as great as he may be, has to bow reverently before the Dharmakaya.

Disciple: Could we think that the last aspiration is to be lost like a drop of water in the ocean of life free in its movement?

Samael Aun Weor: So it is, so it is! The interesting thing is precisely to be able to rescue the cosmic Consciousness, to extract it, because it is bottled within the ego. Remove it from the ego. If Consciousness is able to withstand the terrible test, the Illuminating Void, it is ready (speaking here in very human terms) to enter into the Tality. I repeat: the Tality is beyond the illuminating void and beyond the machinery of relativity. 

Whosoever manages to integrate himself with the Tality has transcended all Individuality. It is what it is, what it has always been, and what it will always be. His body is the body of law, the body of Dharmakaya.

Disciple: Is the Dharmakaya superior to Paramarthasatya? 

Samael Aun Weor: No, no, Paramarthasatya and Dharmakaya are similar; it is only a matter of a few degrees. 

Disciple: [inaudible]

Samael Aun Weor: Obviously, and without yet having the body of the Dharmakaya. Unquestionably, for example, the one who comes to the third state of Consciousness, which is the inner remembrance of oneself, changes in terms of the concepts... that which for many is important, for him is not. He becomes different, completely different.

So people who are, for example, on the first and second levels of being would not understand someone who reached the third level of being, the third state of Consciousness. How could they understand it? What matters, for example, to a person of the first and second state of Consciousness is irrelevant to the person in the third state of Consciousness; meditate on what that means.

Now, what shall we say of a Dharmakaya? The Dharmakaya came to the fourth state of Consciousness, and even more, it transcended the fourth state, because the body-law, the body-substance, is inseparable from Being. He who reaches such heights has another way of understanding...

In these studies we must not forget the didactics. It is clear that everyone of us carries into oneself the mystery of his own self-realization. Each has its own, particular, different mystery. The way someone can solve their own mystery can be different from how another person solves it. Each has its own inner mystery carried within.

For example, we can give the general laws for you to work by, but the details, the specific processes, none are the same, for they constitute the mystery of each of us, and each one has its own mystery of self-realization, a different mystery, that is clear.

For all these reasons, we should really take Gnosis seriously and dedicate ourselves to working on ourselves. 

Any other question?

Disciple: Master, could we think that matter is the most... of substance, or ultimately substance is the top of matter?

Samael Aun Weor: Well, actually, really, the so-called "matter" is crystallized substance. When substance disintegrates, it passes into higher dimensions, it is processed through seven levels before it finally descends into a mere germ, in the chaos from which it emerged one day; that's obvious. There it sleeps among the chaos, for seven eternities, until a new dawn... 

Disciple: Venerable master, you told us about the masters... who had been able to free themselves from karma... many bodhisattvas who are fallen cause great psychological damage to humanity by transforming it negatively... but...  and achieve mastery and sacrifice for humanity; but there is a great disproportion in transforming a person positively... with the teaching and that she... to transform it negatively... Then, how is it possible to get rid of karma, except for forgiveness and love?

Samael Aun Weor: Well, first of all, the question is mistaken, because, really, truly, no one can transform another person. For example, you can receive the instructions given here... techniques for work, but nothing more. You are the one who has to work. Any adept can show the way to others, but it is the disciple who has to walk the path. One thing is the body of the doctrine that one receives, and another thing is the work that one has to do on oneself.

For example, someone might be very well informed, or receive help with their main psychological trait, and we know very well that everyone, psychologically, has a main characteristic trait. We could tell so-and-so, “Your chief feature is lust.” To another, “Your chief feature is selfishness.” To another, "Your chief feature is envy." What would we do, good or evil? Perhaps evil, because we did not let her discover her main psychological trait for herself, through natural and didactic development. The fact that we have told her what her chief feature is does not mean that she has discovered it. Perhaps we harmed her. It is better for her to discover it for herself, through her own deep inner self-development.

So, really, really, no adept can transform anyone. The only thing that we can deliver are the techniques for others to work on themselves and be transformed. But if someone receives such techniques, or such data, such illustrations, and does not work on himself, he is wasting time miserably, and, of course, he is also wasting the time of the adept.

Disciple: I meant, Master... [inaudible]

Samael Aun Weor: Indeed, like anyone else, a fallen bodhisattva is a nobody. Why do we have to point it out as special? 

We should understand what a fallen bodhisattva is, or a bodhisattva in general before awakening. Precisely, it is a seed. It carries a seed, a seed inside, a germ that is crystallized from above, a germ that may or not develop. So, it is not a great person like the one you are trying to paint for me. It is a germ that may or may not develop. Also the germ of a pine, if it falls on a barren soil, may not germinate; it may lose that germ. Thus, a bodhisattva is no more than any other subject, any individual who carries in his organism a germ that could be lost. Is it mandatory for it to develop? If that germ is developed within that organism, then it is good, because as that germ develops within the organism, then a higher being crystallizes from above, a sacred individual, rather, who can do something for humanity. But while the bodhisattva is fallen, even if she carries that germ within, she is an ordinary person, not a great person like you are presenting to me. Therefore, the karma that she can have is the same as that of Pepe, Juan, or Diego...

That one called "bodhisattva" who got drunk, who is out there enchanted with life, with women, and I do not know what, or when, right? Who is that guy? He is a type like the other types: not more or less. He is an element that is serving the designs of Nature, which is the transformation of forces necessary for the economy of the Earth. He is really a Mr. Nobody.

Is it because he carries a seed? Well, who has said that because he has a seed, he could become a sacred individual, or that the germ is going to develop? And if it does not develop, then what? As it develops, it is a John Doe, a so-and-so, a fool like any of us. That is the stark reality of facts!

Disciple: Master, I am... [inaudible]

Samael Aun Weor: I repeat: so it can be a subject that carries the "seed" of a God of the constellation of Sirius, or something like that. Because in life that subject is a body, has a body that captures certain types of energies and transforms and retransmits them to the lower layers of the planetary organism in which we exist, in which we live. That is the fact, but nothing more. Because it carries a germ in its sexual glands, it could be developed; yet, it might not be developed. Living as any ordinary type, it is ordinary as anyone else. Why are you going to have some special karma, or why are you going to be special in the universe? He is a poor fool, as I am, as anyone can be! That is the stark reality of facts! Let us put our feet onto the ground of reality, and leave mythomania out, because that causes suffering, and is hurting the Gnostic movement. 

Let us see, any other questions?

Disciple: [inaudible]

Samael Aun Weor: The only thing left is, in fact, to intelligently use the emotional part of the intellectual center, of course, and to dominate the lower emotions of the negative part of the emotional center, and use the knowledge that we have here, in the mind; introduce them well, here, to control this. With a well-educated mind, superlative emotion, and a little will (because we cannot think that everyone has a great will) we start to control this from here, so that it works correctly and not incorrectly.

Let us see, does anyone else have anything to ask? Ask the right questions because we need everyone to clear their doubts...

Disciple: Master, could you tell us a practical and effective way to be able to do Gnostic practices well?

Samael Aun Weor: To do the apprenticeship and work correctly? Study the teachings we are giving, but study and then put the body of the doctrine into the process of thinking. Learn to think in a new way. This is a matter of work, of study... To see...

Disciple: Venerable master, is a superior Mental body the most suitable instrument, then, for the work...?

Samael Aun Weor: It is wonderful to have a Mental body! But how could we manufacture a Mental body if we are spending all of our energies, whether sexual, intellectual, volitional, or merely sentimental? First of all, if we want to create the third body (no longer the second, but the third, the third psychological body), we must learn to save our energies. If you do not know how to save your forces, vital, emotional, intellectual, volitive, etc., how could you create that body, if you do not leave energies for creation, if you are squandering them? So, first you have to learn to save these energies in order to be able to create an individual mind, to have a really individual mind, since the people do not have individual mind; they have a collection of minds, each carrying a collection of minds; but not a mind, certainly not individual.

Disciple: Master, what technique could we use to empty the mind?

Samael Aun Weor: Well, first of all, relax your body absolutely. 

Second: empty the mind of all thoughts — a phrase that Krishnamurti does not like, my great friend Krishnamurti, whom I appreciate, but he does not like it. I appreciate him; I am not criticizing him; I appreciate him very sincerely; nonetheless, there is the need to empty the mind, even if Krishnamurti does not like it. 

Third: the mantra “gate” that I already taught to everyone in Third Chamber. Which of you knows to sing it? ...Sing it! ...

Disciple: [recites the mantra, but only spoken] gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi swaha...

Samael Aun Weor: Very bad, lousy! Let us see who else? I see there a sister? Sing the mantra! ...

Disciple: [she sings it] gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi swaha...

Samael Aun Weor: Right, right! Very well, this sister deserves applause... [there is applause and laughter].

She is right! Because you were not able? [addressing the person who spoke the mantra].

Disciple: I did not understand that I had to sing it ...

Samael Aun Weor: Ah! So you thought that the mantras are pronounced just like that, dryly? No! You have to learn how to sing them...

Disciple: Yes, master...

Samael Aun Weor: Of course, yes, with silent word, empty mind, and relaxed body. This is how one works, until one day, in the absence of the ego, one can experience the illuminating void: that is the truth.

Whosoever can experience the truth is strengthened to work on himself. Why do the brothers and sisters not have strength to work on themselves? What is wrong with them? What they lack is the experience of the truth. It is one thing to tell someone the way to reach the truth (this or that) and it is another thing to experience the truth for oneself.

The one who wants to experience the truth must undoubtedly relax the body, empty the mind, and sing the mantra of the prajnaparamita. Thus, one day, you will achieve the experience of that which is not of time, of that which is the truth. And, the one who experiences the truth begins to work really, truly, with strength on oneself. 

I experienced the truth when I was an eighteen year old boy. I had the experience of the illuminating void, and I never forgot it. That is what brought me here, talking to you with so much energy: it is due to that experience. If I had not gone through that experience, there would have been failure for my entire existence... see?

Disciple: Excuse me, but since it is a question of me traveling to Colombia, I want to hear that mantra from your own lips...

Samael Aun Weor: With pleasure.

Disciple: So you can know...

Samael Aun Weor: Right! Listen: gaaaateeee gaaaateeee paragaaaateeee parasamgaaaateeee booooodhiiiiiii swaaaaa haaaaaa

Well, my dear brothers and sisters... We are going to give the Gnostic unction, and then later, we will continue with an interval for Meditation

Inverential peace!